Comments on: Fate, or Free Will? http://www.girldetective.net/?p=1504 Reading, Writing, Movies and Mothering in Minneapolis, Mostly Sun, 24 May 2026 11:25:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: girldetective http://www.girldetective.net/?p=1504&cpage=1#comment-12579 girldetective Mon, 07 Jul 2008 03:40:49 +0000 http://www.girldetective.net/?p=1504#comment-12579 Steph, thanks for the long comment, and WL, thanks for the recommendation. I think it's interesting that it seemed to be a reductive article from a flawed study based on what you said, Steph, and yet I still thing it yields interesting things to ponder that points in the direction of the mind-body connection that we'll probably never quite understand,other than we're not all one or the other. And as for your point about deciding to do something, and then getting interrupted, that occurred to me the next day, since it happens to me all the time with the kids. I intend to do something, then I have to pour a glass of milk, or change a diaper, or any number of things, and it becomes very hard to remember what the original decision was. Both the article, and your comment, Nate, reminded me of Zen and the Art of Archery. Steph, thanks for the long comment, and WL, thanks for the recommendation. I think it’s interesting that it seemed to be a reductive article from a flawed study based on what you said, Steph, and yet I still thing it yields interesting things to ponder that points in the direction of the mind-body connection that we’ll probably never quite understand,other than we’re not all one or the other.

And as for your point about deciding to do something, and then getting interrupted, that occurred to me the next day, since it happens to me all the time with the kids. I intend to do something, then I have to pour a glass of milk, or change a diaper, or any number of things, and it becomes very hard to remember what the original decision was.

Both the article, and your comment, Nate, reminded me of Zen and the Art of Archery.

]]> By: Steph http://www.girldetective.net/?p=1504&cpage=1#comment-12520 Steph Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:41:39 +0000 http://www.girldetective.net/?p=1504#comment-12520 As a neuroscientist in training, I'll point out that we actually discussed the actual source material for this article at a lab meeting yesterday, and there are quite a few problems with the original study, not just in terms of how they did their analyses but also in terms of how they framed their question. Without going into too much detail, the study does not distinguish between when one decides to do something (e.g., what you will read next) vs when you actually act on that decision (e.g., "ok, now it's time to read!"). They operate under the assumption that once you make your choice you do it right then and there, when in fact, people often have to delay acting on choices (another example: just because I know what I'm going to eat for lunch today, doesn't mean I'm going to go and eat it right now at 9:30 in the morning). Also, I'll point out the obvious that deciding which of two buttons to press (with no consequences associated with either) is hardly going to require individuals to wrestle with the decision-making process, I think. I may allow that we instinctively have an immediate sense of what we'd like to do in many situations, but this study does nothing to address whether those choices are indeed optimal, and as you said, whether they are ever overridden. Oh, and the researchers were actually only able to determine when participants were going to move 5 seconds in advance of the movement (which is not at all surprising when you look at where they could determine this information from --> motor cortex and pre-motor cortex, areas that are specifically involved in planning and executing actions). Anyway, didn't mean to go into a rant, but given that this area is kind of my niche, I get peeved when the popular press gives such a blind take on what we do and do not know about the brain! As a neuroscientist in training, I’ll point out that we actually discussed the actual source material for this article at a lab meeting yesterday, and there are quite a few problems with the original study, not just in terms of how they did their analyses but also in terms of how they framed their question. Without going into too much detail, the study does not distinguish between when one decides to do something (e.g., what you will read next) vs when you actually act on that decision (e.g., “ok, now it’s time to read!”). They operate under the assumption that once you make your choice you do it right then and there, when in fact, people often have to delay acting on choices (another example: just because I know what I’m going to eat for lunch today, doesn’t mean I’m going to go and eat it right now at 9:30 in the morning). Also, I’ll point out the obvious that deciding which of two buttons to press (with no consequences associated with either) is hardly going to require individuals to wrestle with the decision-making process, I think. I may allow that we instinctively have an immediate sense of what we’d like to do in many situations, but this study does nothing to address whether those choices are indeed optimal, and as you said, whether they are ever overridden.

Oh, and the researchers were actually only able to determine when participants were going to move 5 seconds in advance of the movement (which is not at all surprising when you look at where they could determine this information from –> motor cortex and pre-motor cortex, areas that are specifically involved in planning and executing actions).

Anyway, didn’t mean to go into a rant, but given that this area is kind of my niche, I get peeved when the popular press gives such a blind take on what we do and do not know about the brain!

]]> By: weirleader http://www.girldetective.net/?p=1504&cpage=1#comment-12519 weirleader Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:03:51 +0000 http://www.girldetective.net/?p=1504#comment-12519 If you have not had the opportunity to read it, may I strongly recommend Malcolm Gladwell's <i>Blink</i>. It deals with the brain's decision-making processes - and in a way that I believe is amazingly accessible. I'd suggest that free will isn't called into question as much as it might appear, based on the results above. To me, it appears to say that our mental balance scales work best behind closed doors; the delicate instruments can't stand up to our ham-fisted conscious brain. But that's just mental arithmetic, weighing of pros and cons. In the end, as you suggested above, we can override the "gut feeling" for whatever reasons we choose... It reminds me of playing basketball. Back when I used to be in shape, I'd find that I could make amazing shots as long as I didn't try to analyze what I was doing. It's that mental arithmetic again. If you have not had the opportunity to read it, may I strongly recommend Malcolm Gladwell’s Blink. It deals with the brain’s decision-making processes - and in a way that I believe is amazingly accessible.

I’d suggest that free will isn’t called into question as much as it might appear, based on the results above. To me, it appears to say that our mental balance scales work best behind closed doors; the delicate instruments can’t stand up to our ham-fisted conscious brain. But that’s just mental arithmetic, weighing of pros and cons. In the end, as you suggested above, we can override the “gut feeling” for whatever reasons we choose…

It reminds me of playing basketball. Back when I used to be in shape, I’d find that I could make amazing shots as long as I didn’t try to analyze what I was doing. It’s that mental arithmetic again.

]]>